Curse

Kalidon · Dec 04, 2006, 03:00 PM // 15:00

My only relief is that a monk will surely fit in ANY cookie cutter build ever

dwc89 · Dec 04, 2006, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Found myself having fun yesterday, trying Stygian(sp). We got to the bonefiends - lvl 28 bonefiends hurt btw.

What was nice, nobody rage quit. We tried something a few times with some success. So now I know what the area delivers, it is not impossible. We did manage to take out a bunch of the mobs.

had 2 monks, 2 ele, 2 trap rangers, Derv, and Necro(BiP) - not an ideal set up. The point is, all were willing to try - and nobody was yelling at the monks or anyone else when they died.

At the same time a Guildie was trying another area. We later were moving diff chars through game together, the "you've been playing for: x hours" message came up. He went "wow" a bunch of that was wasted time - refering to DoA.

My guild mate is a good player as am I - 2 diff people with 2 diff perspectives on this new area. My guild mates heart remains with prophecies however, his big thing now is to run his new NF chars through with heroes.

All I can say is I will continue to try, use diff builds, read forums to see what others have tried, etc. BTW - those not sharing skills, etc. what are you afraid of?

ign - Huntress Velasca

Esprit · Dec 04, 2006, 03:37 PM // 15:37

At the moment, even though I have access to the elite area, I have no real urge to play there. I find that playing around in the normal Nightfall area, including Torment, is good enough for me.

Maybe sometime down the line I'll try it more seriously.

I'm glad it's there for when I'll need a challenge.

Avarre · Dec 04, 2006, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

ToPK: a walk in the park with cookie cutter build, but doable also with a balanced team.
DoA: doable ONLY with a cookie cutter build, UNDOABLE with anything else.

I hope for the sake of the human race you are not serious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

A large majority of players is bitching because this place is too hard, but personally I'm disappointed because it's only a show of brute monster force. No originality, no strategy needed, no ingame thinking needed. Heck, even most PvE challenge missions are more thrilling than this place. My strongest grudge against DoA is that players only have to find the right cookie-cutter build, and practice.

In the city at least, we've been using snares, the walls of the terrain and tapping on the aggro bubbles of mobs to draw out and eliminate stragglers, allowing a fragmented (partial wipes or being split by patrol)/weakened (by err7s etc) team to take down significantly larger enemy parties.

Cebe · Dec 04, 2006, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by stamenflicker

Union is a great skill when the average hit against you is 35 or 40 (ie. when shelter is up). But Union is about worthless when you get hit for upwards of 200. The problem with Shelter in DoA is that it doesn't stay up long enough. Shelter is probably the greatest gift a Rit can bring a team. But in DoA it's gone in like 2 secs.

My rit is almost through NF now. I've basically taken vengeful all the way through. There's nothing better than tanking margontites better than my warriors.

Perhaps could take offensive spirits instead...maybe Dissonance, Pain, Shadowsong and Restoration.

Antheus · Dec 04, 2006, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

For what it's worth, I also find the game design very sloppy. Not only is it a stronger version of the same old monsters (seriously... margonites and titans again!?), but it basically relies one strategy: to prevent players from playing normally (huge edenial, no damage mitigation, no stance/enchant/shout, no movement/kiting...) while hitting them with a supernatural damage output. Don't take me wrong I don't mind a very high difficulty level, but this place strongly encourages gimmick groups (e.g: using a defensive 'tank') which are neither particularly fun nor hard to play once the first couple of tutorials have been released.

This is so very wrong.

One thing that DoA enforces is everyone to play naturally. Caster standing in one spot for one minute, casting 5 second nukes and never getting hit is not natural. That's pre-searing difficulty.

Kiting is the first thing everyone must learn to make it there. It's the only way to prevent damage that anyone can do. Kiting is one of crucial skills to completely eliminate damage dealt to your group.

Playing normally:
- e-denial: one of very normal and basic anti-caster techniques
- stances/shouts/enchants: Stance tank is the CORE of every group, they are what makes frost groups work, Spell Breaker, protection monk, aegis, bonders are the CORE of builds, Healer's Boon, every monk is heavy enchant based, so are casters
- damage mitigation is the CORE of every build - see bonder, prot monk, Incoming, they're on fire, stand your ground, wards, and more and more and more. These places are first about damage mitigation, then damage dealing
- Gimick groups do not exist and do not work unless you follow all of the above
- supernatural damage output? so wrong again. The only thing that makes the enemies so dangerous are their healers. And healers shutdown is one of most common techniques everyone should learn from first hour of gameplay

Every single point you mentioned is the exact opposite of what you must do to even survive one group.

Anyone who assumes that will find DoA really Dead on Arrival.

Your list is "DO NOT DO THAT" list for DoA.

Grolubao · Dec 04, 2006, 04:25 PM // 16:25

If we consider the Deep we can see there was some originality there, the KD's and all the strategy to kill Kanax, but here is brute strength.

Also the difficulty itself. I don't find normal that I never got through the first mob, that simply isn't normal

crimsonfilms · Dec 04, 2006, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

but personally I'm disappointed because it's only a show of brute monster force. No originality, no strategy needed, no ingame thinking needed.

Yes, a map that has made all cookie cutter build obsolete forcing players to come up with new builds - including using non warriors as tanks, non SS/MM and Fire eles as source damage, as monk as the only healing source - lacks strategy and originality.

Yes you are right. I see your point.

Let me bring my 2 fire eles, 2 stance tanks, 2 monks and 1 MM/1 SS and be done with it. According to your logic that should work. Or at least 5 Nukers, 1 BiPer and 2 monks.

:?

Antheus · Dec 04, 2006, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grolubao

If we consider the Deep we can see there was some originality there, the KD's and all the strategy to kill Kanax, but here is brute strength.

Also the difficulty itself. I don't find normal that I never got through the first mob, that simply isn't normal

You're trying to brute force your way through, and it's not working.

It's the Deep that suffered from brute force problems, and where one single "cookie cutter" build emerged with nothing coming close.

crimsonfilms · Dec 04, 2006, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

but personally I'm disappointed because it's only a show of brute monster force. No originality, no strategy needed, no ingame thinking needed.

Yes, a map that has made all cookie cutter build obsolete forcing players to come up with new builds - including using non warriors as tanks, non SS/MM and Fire eles as source damage, as monk as the only healing source - lacks strategy and originality.

Yes you are right. I see your point.

Let me bring my 2 fire eles, 2 stance tanks, 2 monks and 1 MM/1 SS and be done with it. According to your logic that should work. Or at least 5 Nukers, 1 BiPer and 2 monks.

:?

Grolubao · Dec 04, 2006, 04:35 PM // 16:35

The only cookie cutter I ever saw in The Deep was that you had to bring KD's, everything else is pure optimization. In here apparently you have to always have MoF otherwise you can't pass the first mob.

I believe I've tried it with about 10 different PUG's with MoF and we never passed the first mob. Maybe it's all people that isn't skilled, or perhaps there's another problem...

Phaern Majes · Dec 04, 2006, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Let me say I now love my sin more than ever. Still need to test it out with a full guild team, but decimating a couple groups using 1 other player and heroes isn't too bad. With humans they might be smart enough to spread out from barrage.

Khaunshar · Dec 04, 2006, 04:39 PM // 16:39

I believe many players try and ignore, or at least minimize, the amount of e-denial, shutdown, interrupt and counter inherent to the Guild Wars skillsets.

See, pretty much every MMORPG out there nowadays relies on the three basics of tanking, healing, and doing damage.

Once a long time ago, there was a 4th piece of this, but it was phased out, due to pvp player demand : Crowd Control. In older MMOs, you had classes that kept multiple mobs mezzed, so the party could concentrate on 1 or 2 at once.

Now, GW doesnt have real CC, but it has counters, interrupts, and e-denial. I would actually group that together in:

Counter

Interrupt

Most people play without either of those, Counter meaning things like blind, daze, weakness that counter the strengths and roles of the target, and interrupt meaning the shutdown or hindering of the targets skill usage.

These 2 are concepts that apparently never were absolutely needed except maybe for Boreas Seabed in a PUG, and it seems to be people like to ignore those functions, and stick to the old tank, heal, damage routine.

Actually, in GW PUGs, its often reduced to damage/heal routine, with tanking being nonexistant.

The Deep was designed in a way that allowed a simple cookie cutter of tank/heal/damage, with the only complication of Knockdowns, to work so well it basically did not force anyone to alter their playstyle from Sorrows Furnace.

Urgoz Warren was and is Ranger territory, I ll leave that out, as there are multiple ways of getting through it even with PUGs.

So now DoA seems to accomplish what others did not: Move away from being doable by MM, echo nuker, sword/shield warrior and standard monk builds.

People complain its too hard, and not clever, when its actually still too clever for them, since they dont even try to adapt, but whine that their old build, even when used "smartly", doesnt work.

Clever and challenging is NOT hitting meteor shower at the right time folks.

Abnaxus · Dec 04, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

To sum up, I'm worried that this can happen:
ToPK: a walk in the park with cookie cutter build, but doable also with a balanced team.
DoA: doable ONLY with a cookie cutter build, UNDOABLE with anything else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I hope for the sake of the human race you are not serious.

I'm not saying that this is for sure, I'm saying that this is my worry.

I used the example of ToPK compared to DoA because in the first case the mission was doable with a normal team, just required more than double of the time, plus coordination and cooperation, but every class could play ToPK, provided that the player was skilled both in using his character and in teamplay.

I'm worried instead, from what I've seen so far, that DoA missions are only doable with some still-to be-found CC build, with some fixed classes and skills and everything else useless.

Antheus · Dec 04, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

I'm not saying that this is for sure, I'm saying that this is my worry.

I used the example of ToPK compared to DoA because in the first case the mission was doable with a normal team, just required more than double of the time, plus coordination and cooperation, but every class could play ToPK, provided that the player was skilled both in using his character and in teamplay.

I'm worried instead, from what I've seen so far, that DoA missions are only doable with some still-to be-found CC build, with some fixed classes and skills and everything else useless.

Motivation is what sets these two places apart.

The only reward to beating ToPK is the greens. Ecto drops are too random, chests are too unreliable as well.

Therefore, ToPK evolved towards a farming build. Time being of the essense, there's no desire whatsoever for anyone to even try something new. All players have left that area never to return. There's nothing left for them. All that's left is the farming groups, who want reliable chances of getting the greens.

ToPK is dead and forgotten.

The Deep and Urgoz suffer from same problem. It's constant fighting till the end where you get a chance for a rare drop.

I see DoA as an incredible improvement over that. You get guaranteed drop, there's replay value for every character, there's lots of diversity, since each area requires different skillsets. But above all, getting to the end is not means to an end. It's rewarded, yet not the only reason.

And SF, the place everyone praises as great content, has been ran by 4-man farming builds almost since start. Nobody cares even remotely about the quests there, not only that, they are so easy, a 4 person group can do them. Even then, that place lacks rewards as well. It once again retains only the farming crowd. Quests merely determine the 4-person group setup.

ChaoticCoyote · Dec 04, 2006, 05:08 PM // 17:08

#1) Given the number of people who have made progress through DoA, the area is not impossible.

#2) I have been in this with groups both cookie cutter (trappers) and random, and have made equal progress either way.

Success in DoA requires patience, coordination, and bringing proper counters/shutdowns. Knowing your enemy is the first step toward victory.

I suggest people read Sun Tzu's The Art of War, and learn a bit of strategy.

Eclair · Dec 04, 2006, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

I'm not saying that this is for sure, I'm saying that this is my worry.

I used the example of ToPK compared to DoA because in the first case the mission was doable with a normal team, just required more than double of the time, plus coordination and cooperation, but every class could play ToPK, provided that the player was skilled both in using his character and in teamplay.

Every class CAN play DoA. Every class is useful here. This is the general breakup of what I think is a pretty good and balanced team:

The Tanks(1-2): Generally one, but I've heard people going with two tanks with sucess too.
Warrior: The standard tank, I think City is the only place where he kind of just has to stand there, since every attack will kill his energy. In the other places, he's free to whack things too.
Dervish: I haven't actually seen a Dervish take the role yet, but I've heard of groups who have. Correctly setup, they should function as well as a warrior, if not better in some areas.
Assassin: This is still experimental, but having 2 assasins with Shadowform, and arcane mimicry would give you an invincible pair of tankers that do not need any monk support, be HIGHLY mobile, and still be able to dish out damage/knockdown/conditions (again, not in City). This could also work with one assassin and another class sacrificing their elite slot for Shadow form. I'm going to try this when my other guildmate gets to DoA.

Support/Damage Mitigation (3-4):
Monks: Generally you should run one protector(to lifebond +prot spirit the tank) and one healer to help deal with spikes and damage in general.
Paragon: Great overall support character. "They're on fire" is absolutely great with SF elementalists. Signet of Return is absolutely essential when your res sigs don't refresh until the end (after you kill the boss). Angelic Bond makes your prot monk's job much easier.
Ranger: Generally the one who brings the Winter + Greater Conflag, can ditch mesmer secondary for rit secondary and bring further defenses, or can spec in offense in stead.
Ritualist: Not too sure on these, since Shelter and Union fall way too quickly. I have heard of other people using them with success though.
Necro: The only defensive role I can think of for a Necro is Biping your casters and monks, which is extremely helpful, perhaps wells too, although their use is limited.
Elementalist: I've heard people having success using wards to mitigate damage, not something I've seen personally though.

Damage/Disruption(3-4):
Elementalist: Standard SF/MS setup works well. SF is pretty much the best damage a elementalist can dish out. It's not the player's fault that A-net pretty much made SF one of the only choices if you want to do decent damage. Snares(water elemenalists) are extremely useful in the Stygian Veil.
Mesmer: Spiritual Pain + Mistrust are an excellent source of armor penetrating damage, addional skill slots can be focused on caster hate (generally the casters are the ones you have to worry about the most, especially the monks).
Rangers: Trapping is good here for overall damage and snaring. Choking Gas is excellent at disrupting casters and preventing a lot of damage by preventing them from casting those spells in the first place.
Necro: Most of the mobs are going to be highly packed, so SS would work wonders. Disease would be handy to have around too.

I mean, this in my opinion is extremely balanced. Every class plays a role, and a lot of classes can be subbed out for other classes. The only class I think that is ABSOLUTELY needed is probably a monk, but that's generally true for most teams. Winter + Greater Conflagaration is NOT required. It's very helpful, though. Plus, Mantra of Frost only takes up 1 slot. It's not that hard to just go to your Guild Hall to buy a core skill. Every class can use it, and it shouldn't affect your build significantly, not to mention, mesmer secondary offers some great synergies with most classes.

Quote:

I'm worried instead, from what I've seen so far, that DoA missions are only doable with some still-to be-found CC build, with some fixed classes and skills and everything else useless.

If you've been reading around, you'd see that MANY people have already beaten City and Stygien Veil. There have been many different builds that people have used (although a lot used the Winter+Greater Conflag+MoF as the core), but what's important is that pretty much all of them have been extremely balanced builds.

Spike · Dec 04, 2006, 05:21 PM // 17:21

LOL great drops in DOA. You must be dreaming . All I hear is that you get non max crap most of the time. If your VERY lucky you might get a max gold from a chest but thats like 1 in 500 if not more. Yes you can get a gem IF you manage to finish the quest. But I see a several people CLAIMING to of finished one of these quests BUT as yet NO PROOF.

Drops ARE what motivates a LOT of people. Thats WHY TPOK and the rest are still played you CAN get good drops in limited time. You don't have to spend hours upon hours on your build or waiting for a group or fighting stupidly hard mobs.

IF you so dislike the constant fighting of The Deep and Urgoz why do you like the same but even harder constant fighting in DOA. You can't have it both ways.

Whats this 4 man farm for SF. I know of the 5 man and done it many times but never seen a 4 man.

Eclair · Dec 04, 2006, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

LOL great drops in DOA. You must be dreaming . All I hear is that you get non max crap most of the time. If your VERY lucky you might get a max gold from a chest but thats like 1 in 500 if not more. Yes you can get a gem IF you manage to finish the quest. But I see a several people CLAIMING to of finished one of these quests BUT as yet NO PROOF.

Drops ARE what motivates a LOT of people. Thats WHY TPOK and the rest are still played you CAN get good drops in limited time. You don't have to spend hours upon hours on your build or waiting for a group or fighting stupidly hard mobs.

IF you so dislike the constant fighting of The Deep and Urgoz why do you like the same but even harder constant fighting in DOA. You can't have it both ways.

Whats this 4 man farm for SF. I know of the 5 man and done it many times but never seen a 4 man.

There are people with SCREENSHOTS (screenshot forum, Elona explorer's league). People have screenshots of Primeval hero armors (randomly pops up into your inventory when you complete one of the 4 quests). People have green drops from bosses that spawn with the quest boss spawn. How much more proof do you need?

Gemstones drop as a normal drop from any of the monsters in the area. While going through city, we had 2 gemstones drop from the margonites. At the end of the quest, EVERYONE recieved a gemstone from the chest.

Ninna · Dec 04, 2006, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

Yes you can get a gem IF you manage to finish the quest. But I see a several people CLAIMING to of finished one of these quests BUT as yet NO PROOF.

this was posted saturday in this thread - complete with screenshots

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noocoo

Finally, our guilde team killed the first boss
http://i17.tinypic.com/4ide714.jpg
http://i16.tinypic.com/4ckcrc1.jpg
After killing the boss, there is a chest that each team member can get gem from it.
Our build:

Assasin (Shadow form tank)
Rt (Soul Twister+ Shelter)
2Mo (WoH and Divert hexes)
Me (Spiritual pain, surge, mistrust, interupt)
E (SH+MS fire nuker)
N/Mo (SS curse)
N/Mo (BiP)

a walkthu , with screenshots, posted at Elonian forum

DoA: Stygian Veil completed - strategy and build
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10085279

but yammer on about the lack of proof ...